tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post504627680620715120..comments2024-03-17T16:21:14.907-05:00Comments on Stop Baptist Predators: It's not about Baptists vs. BaptistsChrista Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-39780226232893646962008-10-12T11:33:00.000-05:002008-10-12T11:33:00.000-05:00Has anyone brough this matter up to other notable ...Has anyone brough this matter up to other notable leaders? Billy Graham? Hank Hannagraaf? John MacArthur? Hannegraaf is usually good about addressing such things?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-25759866512672862442008-10-07T03:09:00.000-05:002008-10-07T03:09:00.000-05:00Christa,I do not think they will call you a "sinne...Christa,<BR/>I do not think they will call you a "sinner". You see, the Bible says we are all sinners. Therefore, for them to call you a sinner would mean they would have to say the truth about you, something that they have not managed to do thus far.<BR/>See ya on the tube!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-36212070628151500132008-10-07T01:51:00.000-05:002008-10-07T01:51:00.000-05:00Christa, Please see Wade's blog and comment as you...Christa, Please see Wade's blog and comment as you see fit:)<BR/><BR/>Make no mistake....I will be there with the RRR crew from Memphis... banner waving!!<BR/>No Surrender!!<BR/>No Retreat!!gmommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11713588262748876624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-50042955766084110342008-10-06T23:13:00.000-05:002008-10-06T23:13:00.000-05:00Yeah, Christa! We have all felt the same pain, and...Yeah, Christa! We have all felt the same pain, and the same shame. The people who have done this don't belong in pulpits. And the people who hide them don't belong in pulpits. And the people who don't see can be led to see. But, you know, it's frightening for them to see. It takes the shades of comfort off their eyes. So maybe there will be a time when we will show them the comfort that really comes from God, and not the comfort of an illusion.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14764962887542099106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-55968745449725543742008-10-06T21:59:00.000-05:002008-10-06T21:59:00.000-05:00"If Christa gets on the Oprah show, I'll be in the...<I>"If Christa gets on the Oprah show, I'll be in the audience front and center."</I><BR/><BR/>Gmommy: I hope I get the privilege of holding you to this promise. I want to see you front and center.<BR/><BR/>And Phyllis, you too. And the whole relentless, ragtag rebel crew.<BR/><BR/>No retreat! No surrender! All of us shining on together!<BR/><BR/>Though we know each other only through cyber-space, there are days like this when I feel so proud and so moved and so grateful for this simple connection to such courageous people as the two of you and many others who read this blog.<BR/><BR/>Always, always, always, my friends... shine on!Christa Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-50056970791015297232008-10-06T21:28:00.000-05:002008-10-06T21:28:00.000-05:00Go gmommy!I appreciate your honesty and strength. ...Go gmommy!<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your honesty and strength. I applaud your comment, "I'm really just OVER the narrow thinking of the Baptists. I won't ever be their clone again."<BR/><BR/>Amen and Amen to that! I am right there with you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-76902577964452080202008-10-06T21:14:00.000-05:002008-10-06T21:14:00.000-05:00Long before Oprah got into new age on her program....Long before Oprah got into new age on her program...she exposed her own trauma that stimulated discussion about the profound effects of sexual abuse. <BR/>No one had the courage before Oprah.<BR/> Since then she has covered topics I thought only haunted my mind. Just to have those scary things exposed somehow validated me and gave me courage. I will be grateful for the work she has done in this area forever!<BR/><BR/>I'm really just OVER the narrow thinking of the Baptists. I won't ever be their clone again.<BR/><BR/>The good that Oprah has accomplished cannot be erased because she doesn't fall in line with the SBC (twisted)theology.<BR/><BR/>She has more courage of conviction than Page Patterson and his followers all put together. She's not trying to control anyone for her gain. It's her show and she's free to share what she chooses.<BR/>Her goal is to enlighten and help people in the area of sexual abuse.<BR/><BR/>When the good ol boys twist the Trinity around to accomplish their goal of authority in the church and in the home....they help no one.<BR/><BR/>If Christa gets on the Oprah show, I'll be in the audience front and center.gmommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11713588262748876624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-79120412999367673942008-10-06T13:17:00.000-05:002008-10-06T13:17:00.000-05:00Lydia, you are probably correct. Christa, what yo...Lydia, you are probably correct. Christa, what you said: "and so should every person who sits in a Baptist pew be grateful, because by bringing this into the light of day, it does the work of trying to protect Baptist kids." Many, most, of the Baptists who sit in the pews don't/won't even admit that there is or could be a problem with their annointed holy preachers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-86907563026758801762008-10-06T12:51:00.000-05:002008-10-06T12:51:00.000-05:00Given all the other ugly names I've been called, "...Given all the other ugly names I've been called, "sinner" would be mild. :-)<BR/><BR/>And if we were to get so lucky as to get Oprah's attention, here's what I would say to any Baptist leader who would speak ill of our alignment with "new age" Oprah: "How dare these blind-eyed, deaf-eared, do-nothing Baptist leaders speak ill of someone like Oprah who actively works and uses her voice to combat child sex abuse."<BR/><BR/>If we were to get so lucky... I would be grateful to Oprah beyond all measure, and so should every person who sits in a Baptist pew be grateful, because by bringing this into the light of day, it does the work of trying to protect Baptist kids. And it is the actual work that matters - ten thousand times more - than all the pontification and "anti-new-age" spewing of all the do-nothing Baptist leaders who have, so far, sat on the sidelines chanting "autonomy" as though it were a magic word to relieve moral obligation.<BR/><BR/><I>[Lydia: Please know that the tone of this comment is not at all directed at you. I too can just hear in my head the voices of those Baptist leaders who would likely rail against "new age" thought rather than ever rebuking a clergy child molester or cover-upper. And yeah, it makes me a little angry to even imagine it.]</I>Christa Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-82168676762722353722008-10-06T12:07:00.000-05:002008-10-06T12:07:00.000-05:00They will just call you sinners for aligning yours...They will just call you sinners for aligning yourselves with the new age Oprah. It will not move them UNLESS going on Oprah dries up the money.<BR/><BR/>BTW: A Christian school in our city has advised parents that it is going to start teaching elementary children about sexual abuse and how to protect themselves. They sent out a notice and the presentation they are using is Bible centered and shows the evil of those who do such things even if they are church leaders. If one does not want their child to hear it, they can opt out. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Can you imagine how this would go over in the churches? <BR/><BR/>LydiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-27462682697041141882008-10-05T23:25:00.000-05:002008-10-05T23:25:00.000-05:00Great idea! I sent Ophra my request. This may open...Great idea! I sent Ophra my request. This may open a whole new approach to addressing this problemAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-75410414985904061522008-10-05T21:20:00.000-05:002008-10-05T21:20:00.000-05:00Thy Peace: Thanks - don't worry about it. I just t...Thy Peace: Thanks - don't worry about it. I just tend to pretty fanatical about erring on the side of caution.Christa Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-42419964530794741512008-10-05T21:14:00.000-05:002008-10-05T21:14:00.000-05:00Education: For many victims, the reason they wind ...Education: For many victims, the reason they wind up becoming prey has more to do with an excess of faith than a lack of education. The person's own faith is what preacher-perps twist into a weapon. Should we educate young people NOT to have faith? NOT to believe in things unseen and inexplicable? NOT to live by faith? NOT to trust that God will make all work together for good even if it doesn't seem to make sense? I'm not at all opposed to educational efforts, but what's really needed most desperately are courageous leaders.<BR/><BR/>Responsibility and accountability must be placed on the perpetrators AND on other leaders who turn a blind eye. In about 75 percent of the cases I hear about, there was someone else in the church, often another church leader, who knew or who had enough information that they should have acted on it.<BR/><BR/><B>Write to Oprah!</B> Great suggestion gmommy! I believe that what will ultimately bring about reform is massive media pressure. That's what it took for Catholics, and it looks as though Southern Baptist leaders are determined to be even more recalcitrant than the bishops. Here's the page on <A HREF="https://www.oprah.com/ord/plugform.jsp?plugId=216" REL="nofollow">oprah.com</A> where you can email your suggestion for a show on Baptist clergy sex abuse.<BR/><BR/>Possible points to make: (1) Southern Baptist are the largest Protestant denomination in the land and, unlike most other major faith groups in the country, they have no oversight system for their ministers. (2) They have no procedures for removing a man from ministry, no matter how substantiated and credible the child-molestation allegation may be, and they don't even warn people in the pews. (3) No one is even keeping records on abuse reports made by victims. There's no way to know whether a minister may have had a prior report of child molestation... or a dozen prior reports. (4) Insurance company data indicates that clergy child molestation is just as big a problem among Baptists as among Catholics - but the difference is that Baptists are still staying under the radar... and they haven't yet even begun to address it. (5) Look at StopBaptistPredators.org -- this problem is huge! (6) Perpetrators move from church to church, and no one stops them. Cover-ups are common. (7) Victims are told that they must go to the church of the perpetrator to report him. It's like telling them to go to the den of the wolf - it doesn't work and it re-injures the victims.<BR/><BR/>I could go on and on and on and on... as I suspect most of you realize about me by now... but please don't feel like you need to use my words. Tell Oprah in your words why you think this is a show she should run and why the American public needs to know about this and why her voice could be so important for getting the needed attention to this and for making kids in Baptist churches a lot safer.Christa Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-56855225124293275202008-10-05T19:59:00.000-05:002008-10-05T19:59:00.000-05:00I am involved with an SBC church. My pastor is awa...I am involved with an SBC church. My pastor is aware and believes all the sex abuse crap that's going on. So has some other friends and pastors of mine. And they do not hesitate to talk to me and support me in my healing. The problem is there are just too few that are totally aware, and with the set up of the denomination, individual pastors of small to medium size churches can not do much. Individual members can do even less. But as pastors and members touch lives, we can bring about the change, and the change will happen.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14764962887542099106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-82659274743286397682008-10-05T19:43:00.000-05:002008-10-05T19:43:00.000-05:00Phyllis you are absolutely correct. Not only do th...Phyllis you are absolutely correct. Not only do the members not believe it but most pastors do not believe. When I was pastoring in Michigan I was confronted with sex perverts who used to be members of the church where I was pastoring. When I began working with the victims one of them commented that she could not beleive I was trying to do anything about this sin. She went on to say that the former pastors refused to get involved. I replied that they might have not known about it. She said fr me to call one who was still in the area. With her sitting there I did. When I asked him if he had known about this when he was there he said, "Yes, but I was not going to stir that mess up!" I told him that I thought he was a coward and now I was having to deal with a lot of delayed anger and pain. He went on to say that he would have lost his position if he got involved. i told him that it is always better to loose one's position than to loose one's character and integrity.<BR/>This is why wec must all do our part to raise the voice of outrage and raise the flag of warning. In time more will believe as they have more knowledge and the curse continues to hit at the very soul of baptist life.<BR/>Phyllis, you and many other brave souls are doing a work that only eternity will be able to measure. God bless all of you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-8643302693977562622008-10-05T19:02:00.000-05:002008-10-05T19:02:00.000-05:00John,Concerning your statement: "My concern is how...John,<BR/>Concerning your statement: "My concern is how many more must suffer before the average pew sitter decides to demand the oversight action." We need the support of the "pew sitters" and that we don't have. <BR/><BR/>I hate to sound so negative, but that is how I feel. The people in the pews that make up the numbers in the SBC DO NOT BELIEVE all this sexual abuse stuff is going on. I have gone to church with these people. I still know a few -- they used to be close friends. These are the people who ignore what Steve Gaines allowed at Bellevue and continue to believe that he is a great preacher.<BR/><BR/>I believe that most of the people who read this blog are FORMER SBC members. Please let me know if I am wrong. We can write letters and tell the press or Oprah or anyone else all the horrors that have gone on at the hands of ordained ministers, deacons, or Sunday School teachers. BUT,until the people in the pews believe NOTHING WILL CHANGE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-41531301815431526232008-10-05T16:33:00.000-05:002008-10-05T16:33:00.000-05:00Sorry Christa. That name was mentioned in Pastor W...Sorry Christa. That name was mentioned in Pastor Wade Burleson blog article on Darrell Gilyard. My apologies.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-87755611928918068732008-10-05T13:28:00.000-05:002008-10-05T13:28:00.000-05:00Thy Peace said:I would like to thank Christa Brown...<B>Thy Peace said:</B><BR/>I would like to thank Christa Brown for this well written post. The writing is very clear and lucid. (I am learning to write better :-))<BR/><BR/>To OC: Peace, Brother. There is so much pain and anguish involved with sexual abuse, I understand.<BR/><BR/>I am expressing my thoughts here. They may not be coherent, but I aim to be.<BR/><BR/>I have been thinking about this issue for the past month. I agree with Christa in everything she has written. Currently, Christa is advocating some form oversight body to keep a record of past sexual offenders and their activities. This would be used by churches or organizations, hiring new employees who would check against this record. I understand in SBC, technically, the organization is bottom-up type. But I have seen where there were lot of mandates and dictates given by SBC and IMB, that were top-down (Please see Pastor Wade Burleson blog articles). My guess why the SBC does not want to do this oversight body, is for insurance purposes and negligence claims against SBC and or the local churches.<BR/><BR/>I do not know all the logic involved here.<BR/><BR/>My take is, if a church is truly Holy Spirit led, the leaders are truly Servant Leaders, then they will and must hear and agree with Christa Brown here. What Christa is advocating is not anything "new", but it calls for leadership to be courageous in admitting mistakes and take action on how to correct them. The only way the leadership in churches will do this is if they are Holy Spirit led and they invoke their Servant nature of their leadership. Otherwise, it's all ego's, tyranny and dictatorial management styles running the churches. And they will never want to admit that they made mistakes and they try to cover up their mistakes (which makes these cases all the more difficult and sad).<BR/><BR/>The one reason I clearly agree with Christa about oversight body keeping records of possible offenders is this: When one commits sexual offense, it's not done in a vacuum. There is ALWAYS a trail of actions that led up to this. This trail is the clue for suspecting possible future offenders. Clearly the records that might be maintained by any body will be challenged for privacy reasons, and any records in any database will have to have official reasons for that entry with supporting documentation and details. This is lot of work. But it has to be done. There is no other way.<BR/><BR/>About the role of education: Educating general public on how to reason properly, how to determine when one is being coerced in to thinking or doing another's bidding, how to spot possible sexual offenses taking place, before they get serious, who to go to or contact when stuff happens ... ALL this is good.<BR/><BR/>But it will not help lot of the victims who are very young (or old) who can not discern properly. The sad thing is, lot of the sexual abuse cases are for these victims.<BR/><BR/>Example: Darrell Gilyard and [*********].<BR/><BR/>The only defense from the victim's perspective (besides churches not hiring these offenders in the first place) is for them to have a support group (family, friends, church members) who are Holy Spirit led and are caring to check on these members (young and old). This is very hard to do.<BR/><BR/>Example: FBC JAX Watchdog had posted an article last year on Darrell Gilyard. There were SO MANY negative comments coming from the members of the church where Gilyard was pastoring against this article. I could not believe it. It looks like lot of the church members want to believe the best of their pastor and will refuse to hear accusations or complaints against them.<BR/><BR/>The only way out of all this is, for the church leadership to be truly led by the Holy Spirit and the leadership become servants in a church.<BR/><BR/><I>[This is a reposting of the last prior comment of Thy Peace. The only change I made was to delete a name in the comment because I wasn't sure how the person would feel about being named. Christa]</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-64429621520749171552008-10-05T08:50:00.000-05:002008-10-05T08:50:00.000-05:00I think the SBC and the good ol boy network needs ...I think the SBC and the good ol boy network needs to be shut down. However that has to happen.<BR/><BR/>It's one thing for some of us to decide never to be a part of an SBC or Baptist church again....but that still leaves them to carry on and hundreds of victims to be left bleeding along their power trail.<BR/><BR/>There has to be a way to expose them and shut them down. <BR/>Why should the Paige Patterson followers draw their huge salaries, go on all their church and mission paid trips, continue to influence (to the point of dictate) what twisted theology is taught at the seminaries that will further the ignorance and abuse...and continue to encourage sexual predators in the pulpits??<BR/><BR/>Christa, would you give us a templet type letter for many of us to personalize and use to send to the Oprah show in mass????<BR/><BR/>It may sound silly but that's the kind of coverage and support it would take to really get things changed.<BR/>Then once this got the attention of Oprah, we couldn't leave all this to Christa.<BR/> We would have to make whatever sacrifices to be the support she needed....raise money,make calls,pray, be present in mass support from all over.<BR/><BR/>Christa has fought this fight and taken the blows for a very long time. We need to help more.<BR/>No matter what some think of Oprahs politics or "spirituality" she has done more to open eyes about sexual abuse then any other personality or celebrity. <BR/><BR/>I'm grateful to the newspaper writers and others who have supported our cause but if we really rallied together ....<BR/>we could feasibly get Christa and this well documented crime on the Oprah show. <BR/>That could shut down the SBC (and the other Baptist organization)and all those powerful little men who have sacrificed so many innocent men, women, and children for their own agenda.<BR/>We could do this....if we rally together and become as relentless as Christa Brown.gmommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11713588262748876624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-52241916930636314882008-10-05T08:13:00.000-05:002008-10-05T08:13:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-16762462467474797442008-10-04T23:50:00.000-05:002008-10-04T23:50:00.000-05:00Sadly there is not a way know as of yet to be able...Sadly there is not a way know as of yet to be able to "spot" a pervert. The leadership of the church has to take steps to try to prevent situations from occuring which make it easier for the perverts to do their dirty work. Now, since so many of the perverts who are being caught are "leaders" it is easier to see why the efforts of groups like SNAP ar3e so important and the need for an independent watchcare group are essential. <BR/>Anger and frustration are a natural outgrowth of being violated. To expect those who have never been violated or never trained to deal with those who have been violated to understand the depth of the pain, anger, sence of being violated and betrayed is asking almost the impossible. <BR/>All we ask them to do is give the system of oversight a chance. Also, please understand that almost as much as we want justice we want the non-victims to maintain that status.<BR/>Yes Phyllis, I agree with you that the right will pervail. My concern is how many more must suffer before the average pew sitter decides to demand the oversight action.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-38739522322981202322008-10-04T23:02:00.000-05:002008-10-04T23:02:00.000-05:00OC,Apologize for nothing -- you only spoke the tru...OC,<BR/>Apologize for nothing -- you only spoke the truth in a way that should make people think and listen.<BR/><BR/>I agree with all you said. Keep those honest thoughts coming. I do beleieve that in time the truth will set us free.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-46786335089768883482008-10-04T15:54:00.000-05:002008-10-04T15:54:00.000-05:00Thypeace.My post was in no way in deference to you...Thypeace.<BR/>My post was in no way in deference to you. I admire you and respect your opinions. You have given evidence of being Holy Spirit grounded.<BR/><BR/>No, my posts were not in any way a retaliation against yours. In fact, you gave me inspiration to go on ahead and speak what He's already given me.<BR/><BR/>Peace, my friend. In Him.<BR/>oc.ochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00910693449008506409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-29714122931479559642008-10-04T15:49:00.000-05:002008-10-04T15:49:00.000-05:00I understand, in churches, it is very hard for mem...I understand, in churches, it is very hard for members to do ... because they think they are in a trusting environment, they are in God's house ... and that the staff is vetted and checked ... so this stuff is much harder to deal with than when it happens in the world outside.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-12950402156006986242008-10-04T15:43:00.000-05:002008-10-04T15:43:00.000-05:00What I meant by education is, to prepare: think in...What I meant by education is, to prepare: think in terms of self defense, how to spot possible offenders taking advantage of you, what your rights are, who to go to when stuff might possibly taking place, how to discern ... <BR/><BR/>After the fact, punishing the offenders, sending a message to possible offenders are good ... except, it still will not stop future offenders.<BR/><BR/>I am not condoning them.<BR/><BR/>All I am saying, the church members are to be little bit more prepared in the knowledge of how to spot such an offender or activity that could become really bad, as it has happened here.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.com