tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post7332607252024642519..comments2024-03-17T16:21:14.907-05:00Comments on Stop Baptist Predators: Obedience and AuthorityChrista Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-52860715030921190782009-01-11T21:42:00.000-06:002009-01-11T21:42:00.000-06:00To Christa comment....a non Baptist hardy AMEN!To Christa comment....<BR/>a non Baptist hardy AMEN!gmommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11713588262748876624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-77888675983992895692009-01-11T17:35:00.000-06:002009-01-11T17:35:00.000-06:00It's always easier to "forgive" when it doesn't to...It's always easier to "forgive" when it doesn't touch you.ochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00910693449008506409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-76089848014096785312009-01-11T16:41:00.000-06:002009-01-11T16:41:00.000-06:00Talking about forgiveness is so much easier, and a...Talking about forgiveness is so much easier, and as John points out, gets them "brownie points" for being "spiritual." But to actually sit with the pain of those who have been molested, raped and sodomized as kids by ministers whom they trusted completely is something that most of these men lack the fortitude for.<BR/><BR/>It's also a lot easier for Baptist leaders to see the pain (or what is often pretend pain) of the clergy sex abuser and his family. He looks like them, and talks like them, and his career has been like theirs, and they can identify with him. And because the perpetrator is not a fraction so wounded as his victim, he's capable of talking about it (if he's caught) and sounding as though he's remorseful. But even if it's true that he's genuinely remorseful, there's a big difference between guilt and shame. He may feel guilty about what he did, but the victim feels profound shame about who they ARE. That's often the effect of the injury -- that it leaves the victim's self-identity so profoundly enmeshed with the belief that they are worthless or worse that the victim does not usually speak of it. So, people wind up seeing the pain (or pretend pain) of the perpetrator, but they don't see the pain of the victim... precisely because THAT pain is so great that it renders them mute. And most people don't want to make the effort to see THAT pain because it makes THEM too uneasy and challenges their own sense of safety in the world. As you have said before, gmommy, most church people simply prefer to stay in their safe little "bubble-world" rather than to actually open their eyes to the pain of those who have been wounded by Baptist clergy.<BR/><BR/>It's easy to talk about forgiveness. Almost rote. We all learned about forgiveness in Sunday School... probably starting back when we were about 4. But it's a lot harder for people to wrap their heads around the reality of ministers who molest and rape the young. That's something nobody talked about in Sunday School. It's a whole 'nother world. And most people choose the safety of sticking with the rote talk of forgiveness rather than seeing the reality of that world outside their bubble.Christa Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-80390548947530799692009-01-11T14:00:00.000-06:002009-01-11T14:00:00.000-06:00Gmommy,Yes, it makes a lot of sence if you know th...Gmommy,<BR/><BR/>Yes, it makes a lot of sence if you know the mindset of too many "religious" leaders today. At all costs, even justice and fairness, we just must look like we are "SPIRITUAL" so as to bring more "trusting" souls into the flock.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-90155045397850954652009-01-11T13:56:00.000-06:002009-01-11T13:56:00.000-06:00Christa, On Wade Burleson's blog,the Ted Haggerty ...Christa, <BR/>On Wade Burleson's blog,the Ted Haggerty scandal is the topic. One commenter brought up the abuse of a child and the Christian's responsibility to forgive.<BR/><BR/>It's amazing to see the first response be about forgiving the abuser ...NOT to come to the aid and restoration of the victims???<BR/><BR/>It just makes no sense to me.gmommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11713588262748876624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-79699806722080291972009-01-11T13:36:00.000-06:002009-01-11T13:36:00.000-06:00ChristaI'm trying to understanding the issue. Your...Christa<BR/><BR/>I'm trying to understanding the issue. Your blog is about Baptist clergy predators. Specifically what takes place in church environments.<BR/><BR/>I believe your story about Gilmore. He has been protected by the denomination. So don't take this wrong if I ask, would there be a difference if the relationship had been consensual?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-76929801878740560642009-01-09T14:19:00.000-06:002009-01-09T14:19:00.000-06:00It seems this is a matter of the idea "I can live ...It seems this is a matter of the idea "I can live with the pain, as long as it's not happening to me".<BR/><BR/>Kinda like the SBC leadership in relation to clergy predation. God forbid if it ever happens to one of THEIR insulated daughters or sons, or one of their precious grandchildren. That's when the pain would be felt. I'm sure it would then be taken VERY SERIOUSLY... and something would be done about it in short order.<BR/><BR/>But I guess pain is "relative". It's really easy to feel sorry for the kids in Ethiopia who are starving. We hurt for a season, didn't we? Most of us somehow forgot about it, maybe pay lip service or even send a dollar once in a while. But mostly we work at ignoring it after that, because it's too painful to acknowlege we have done next to nothing while they are in pain and they starve and die still, yet we are fat.<BR/><BR/>But it sure is different if one of our own is starving. Well...at least it should make one more compassionate...<BR/><BR/>But the "leadership" has convinced themselves that the sin and pain of clergy sexual predation has not infected their own house, it's just a problem for someone else's house, since it hasn't happened personally to one of theirs. <BR/><BR/>So I guess pain is "relative", so to speak, isn't it? It's easy to ignore the problem, because clergy predation hasn't touched one of theirs. Which really says something else profound. Evidently those of us who are concerned about this<BR/>problem are really none of "theirs"...<BR/><BR/><BR/>oc.ochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00910693449008506409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-74542531148433016012009-01-07T14:00:00.000-06:002009-01-07T14:00:00.000-06:00Thanks Christa,I read the studies. It is disturbin...Thanks Christa,I read the studies. It is disturbing to think that we [humans] are like that. Dispite the findings I still think the inflictors of pain must assume responsibility for their actions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-39397799460594315512009-01-06T22:23:00.000-06:002009-01-06T22:23:00.000-06:00John: Suggest you look at the two articles linked ...John: Suggest you look at the two articles linked in the posting, and one of them has still more links to reports and subsequent stuff about the Milgram study/conclusions. An interesting note to the original Milgram study is that, even among the participants who stopped the shocks before reaching the maximum of 450 volts, NONE requested that the experiment itself be terminated and NONE of them went to check on the health of the victim (who was in another room but whose responses to the shocks could be heard through the wall) without first requesting permission from the authority figure -- i.e., the director of the study.Christa Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04560409585720043015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3874123597623259718.post-30081579547016053622009-01-06T21:35:00.000-06:002009-01-06T21:35:00.000-06:00I watched the video as per your request. It was di...I watched the video as per your request. It was disturbing to say the least. I am not sure just how reliable their conclusions were but to listen to those who administered the pain it was obvious that they had a pull inside of them going both ways. Was is sad is is that it appears they chose the worng way and then try to justify their choices by blaming someone or something else. Perps in the church are faced with the same two choices. It is sad to know how many choose the wrong way. When you listen to these people after they are caught they too blame someone or something else for their failures.<BR/> Unlike the experiment, the perps we are dealing with neither care for the victim nor are they worried about how much pain the cause. Since they are referred to as people with "spiritual authority" only makes this study all the more disturbing. <BR/> Have they publised any summary as to why the people willing inflicted pain on others?<BR/> I would be interested in reading their conclusions of the study if they can be found.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com