Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Catholics were hellfire wrong

I grew up believing Catholics were wrong. Very wrong. We’re talking hellfire and damnation kind of wrong.

According to my childhood pastor, Catholics could expect to spend eternity in hell with the smell of their own flesh burning.

But the hellfire would never be so merciful as to burn them up. Instead, it would just keep on burning and burning and burning. For all eternity.

That’s how wrong the Catholics were.

And that’s why this earlier comment by Junkster rang so true to me:

"Baptist leaders are quick to say that the Southern Baptist Convention can't do anything about abusive ministers because of the doctrine of local church autonomy. This indicates that autonomy is such a highly prized doctrine that it over-rides pretty much everything, including concerns about protecting children. In essence they say, 'Catholics can handle the problem differently than we can because their church government is structured differently; our hands are tied by our form of church government.'

"Yet Baptists believe in (cling to) the doctrine of autonomy not just out of tradition, but because they believe it is right. They believe it is what the Bible teaches, and that other forms of church government (like the hierarchical structure of the Catholic church) are unbiblical. Put another way, Baptist believe that the way Catholics are organized is wrong, just as they believe Catholics are wrong on their doctrines of justification, sanctification, purgatory, saints, Mary, etc.

"All that said, wouldn't if follow that when the Catholic church as an organization removes a priest's ordination and refuses him a place of service in any Catholic church, according to Baptist doctrine, the Catholic church is wrong for doing so? I mean, if Baptists believe they are right about church government (autonomy) and Catholics are wrong (hierarchy), then doesn't that mean that the Catholic church is wrong when they act according to their wrong doctrine?

"But I have yet to hear a Baptist leader say that. They simply throw up their hands and say, 'Oh well, Catholics do things differently than we do; we can't do what they do.'

This raises the question . . . if autonomy is really the primary concern, and if it is so strongly believed to be true Bible doctrine, why do Baptist preachers not have the courage of their convictions to come right out and say, 'What we are doing [leaving it to local churches] is right and what the Catholics are doing [handling it as an organization as a whole] is wrong'?

I will answer my own question . . . because they know how bad it would sound. It would be plain for all to see that they are saying that it is preferable to allow abuse to continue in order to protect autonomy. And that is one reason I believe autonomy to be just a smokescreen, a convenient excuse to do nothing.

There may be many reasons the Southern Baptist Convention has chosen not to address this issue as it should (fear of lawsuits, pride, potential loss of esteem and power, laziness, apathy, etc.) but autonomy is not the reason; it is just an excuse."

Over 700 Catholic priests have been removed from active ministry based on “credible accusations” of child sex abuse. Only about 3 percent were ever criminally convicted. If Catholic leaders still followed the same tragically low standard as Southern Baptist leaders, about 679 of those “credibly accused” priests could still be in ministry and working with kids.

So who's more wrong?

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

At least we get a break as Baptists when you are chastising the Catholics. Or should I say even praising them for outing all the perverted priests that they have. Think of how much money they have spent and then you wonder why the Southern Baptists are ignoring you.

Surely you can reason better than that.

John said...

Money vrs children's protection!

Yes I can reason that! The SBC loves their money more than their children or God's Word on children!

Anonymous said...

I was at the convention and heard motions from the floor concerning any association we have with Mark Driscoll. So, why hasn't there been any motion in the past concerning our association with Bellevue Baptist/Steve Gaines who harbored a pedophile minister?

Instead, Gaines is given speaking engagments around the SBC right after the world found out he allowed a pedophile minister to stay on staff.

My point is we have ways to deal with this stuff that would send a big message. They simply do not want it known. They want to protect Gaines.

Junkster said...

I agree with what I wrote! :)

Jim said...

Tonight in Jacksonville, FL members of Friendship Missionary Baptist Church voted to retain a church staff member accused of sending "inappropriate" text messages to a teen-aged girl. Go figure...

gmommy said...

Jim,
Is that in writing anywhere so I can make it public???

Jim said...

The story was on one of our local news programs last night. They interviewed a member of the church, using an altered voice and outlined figure of that person. Have been unable to find anything in print, but will continue looking.

gmommy said...

"Watchdog" in Florida heard about it also. What is wrong with people?? Do they seriously WANT a minister who is SO weak and undisciplined that he can't keep himself from sending inappropriate text messages to young people??? We never see that kind of concern and compassion for the ones violated by these guys!!

Anonymous said...

Link to the Story

Here's also a list
of older allegations in Baptist churches dating back from 1984 to 2003

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Christa Brown said...

Anon 2:26 - Thanks for the story link. I just now posted it as a headline on the StopBaptistPredators website.

According to the Action News story and video link, the church leader was accused of having an "inappropriate relationship" with a 15-year-old church girl, and he admitted the conduct to the congregation. A congregant said that he had asked the girl "to have sex with him." But the congregation voted to keep him anyway, with lots of biblical talk about . . . can you guess?Forgiveness. (I imagine you saw that one coming, huh?)

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Not dreaming and No longer Quivering:

-----------------------------------
Adventures In Mercy [Molleth] > No Longer Quivering: Carnival Nov. 1-4th.
A blog (and forum) I’ve taken great interest in, since it’s inception, is No Longer Quivering. Here is what can happen when complementarianism goes “hard,” what can happen when you peek behind the pretty pictures of the “Biblical Patriarchy” movement.
...
Consider this your invitation to go enjoy the Carnival at No Longer Quivering. The blog will be full of little (true) stories from wives and daughters who lived through the patriarchy movement, and the forums (where discussion takes place) promise to be hopping, if you are a forum sort of person
.
-----------------------------------
Quivering Duaghters > A Different Perpective: She is No Longer Quivering.
Over a few short months, a mother of seven from Nebraska has made headlines as she abandoned her Quiverfull life, launched a website and message board, inspired a play, and started writing a book based upon her experience. Scheduled to appear on an upcoming episode of the Joy Behar Show, Vyckie Garrison of No Longer Quivering is hosting a fun event November 1-4 designed to foster community and garner awareness of some of the painful aspects of fundamentalism. Featuring around-the-clock, live NLQ chat, this would be an excellent opportunity for any of you with questions or thoughts regarding Vyckie's experience as a Quiverfull mom, or to share your own! Stay for fun activities, games, and lots of cool prizes.

Anonymous said...

A congregant said that he had asked the girl "to have sex with him." But the congregation voted to keep him anyway, with lots of biblical talk about . . . can you guess?Forgiveness. (I imagine you saw that one coming, huh?)

October 31, 2009 10:37 AM

Read the letters to the churches in Revelation and realize the Lampstand was removed from this Body long ago. They are playing church. They have 'no ears to hear'.

He can be forgiven but is he really repentent? And even if he is, scripture says he is no longer qualified to be a minister. 1 Tim 3.

Our forgiveness means little in light of his eternal life. It is the forgiveness of the Lord he should seek with thoughts of Hebrews 10: 26-31 in mind.

Elisabeth said...

That's sick that man did what he did, and it's sick that he's still in leadership. Forgiveness doesn't mean allowing the evil to stay!

BaptistPlanet said...

Could the next related congregational conversation for a church like the one Jacksonville be about "liability?"
Unless the rush to escape liability included various hush strategies and ushering the offender quietly off to another community?
Hypothetically speaking, of course, unless someone wants to type in a list of applicable examples.