Friday, November 27, 2009

Jezebel rant

Someone sent me this video excerpt of Southern Baptist uber-pastor Steve Gaines preaching about Jezebel just a couple weeks ago.

“Jezebel.” It’s a name some Baptist pastors like to fling at women who don’t keep quiet when they’re told. It's been flung at me a few times.

“Jezebel.” She was thrown out a window, trampled by horses, left for dead, and devoured by dogs.

So you know they don’t mean you well when they call you a “Jezebel.”

But even though I knew that being called a “Jezebel” wasn’t a compliment, this video sheds a whole new light. Gee whiz, according to pastor Gaines, you’d think “Jezebel” women are responsible for every bit of e-e-e-e-e-e-e-vil in the world.

It’s no wonder so many Baptist men can get away with so much and are held so unaccountable. They blame everything bad on “Jezebel” women and so they never bother to take a good look at themselves.

In fact, what makes this version of the “Jezebel rant” so ludicrous is that it’s being delivered by a man who knowingly kept quiet about an admitted child molester on his ministerial staff. Furthermore, he even allowed the child-molesting-minister to serve as a counselor for congregants who said they had been molested in childhood. So, a known child-molesting-minister was able to sit in a church office and feed off asking molested individuals for details about exactly what happened.

Sick, huh?

Yet, here’s this man, Steve Gaines, masquerading as a voice of moral authority and ranting about “Jezebel,” when he himself didn’t even have enough moral sense to remove a known child molester from ministry.

To quote the former Southern Baptist pastor Robert G. Lee, who first delivered the “Jezebel rant” years ago . . . “What a ridiculous picture.”

Be sure you don’t miss the part toward the end where pastor Gaines manages to impugn all of Southern California, despite the countless good, decent, hard-working people who live there. Rather than ranting about the “moral quagmire of Southern California,” Gaines would do better to take a good look at the moral quagmire of his own mega-church, Bellevue Baptist in Memphis. It’s a church in which at least 10 other church leaders and staff also knew about the child molesting minister, but they followed the example of their morally-blind pastor and kept quiet.

The creepiest part of Gaines’ “Jezebel rant” is the part at the very end when you hear the sound of people applauding. Why are those people of Bellevue still placing themselves under the claimed pastoral authority of a man so obviously lacking in moral authority?

And why are those people of Bellevue so utterly oblivious to the message their church sends by continuing to retain Steve Gaines as senior pastor?

It’s a message that shouts loud and clear: “Clergy sex abuse cover-up? No big deal.”

Without further ado . . . here is Southern Baptist pastor Steve Gaines performing the “Jezebel rant.” Have a laugh, if you can.


BaptistPlanet said...

Did you warn me that his verbal images are pornographic?

Christa Brown said...

Oops ....
WARNING! Some may find the language offensive. (And if you don't find the language offensive, decent people will almost surely find the guy delivering it offensive.)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Did you notice how Gaines made certain everyone knew those were the words of R.G. Lee? A lot of them were, so he was correct to give Lee credit (you can tell when he begins speaking off the cuff near the end), but just to make absolutely certain it was understood it was Lee speaking and not Gaines, they put a photo of Lee on the IMAG while Gaines was reading Lee's words. This way Gaines can say it wasn't he who was talking about "Jezebel women." He was only quoting Lee.

I've heard about Lee's infamous "Payday Someday" sermon for years, but for some reason I'd never read or heard it. Now I've heard it -- on YouTube, and other than the novelty of seeing someone deliver such a long sermon without notes and almost verbatim from the written transcript, I was left scratching my head.

THIS is the sermon people have gushed over for all these years? He spent a lot of his time stating as if it were fact what he imagined Jezebel said to Ahab (e.g. "What's the matter with you, big boy?") and even what she was thinking. Poor Ahab. Sure, he was a pretty bad guy to begin with, but he was "under the thumb" of this evil woman! He didn't stand a chance! Listening to Steve Gaines read excerpts from it and reading the transcript was bad enough. Listening to Lee deliver it took it to a whole new level. The venom just dripped.

I've heard Steve Gaines read that passage before using a whiny, quivering voice to read Ahab's words. I just thought it was Steve being trying but failing to be humorous. Imagine my surprise when he stated that Lee always read it just that way! He was close to the truth there. FF in the video to around 9:00 and listen for about a minute. (Any longer than that and you'll probably want to shoot yourself.)

Lydia said...

This is a pretty common misconception in most evangelical churches. Even women think women cause most problems! It is so ingrained it is hard to even broach truth in full.

It is based upon the belief that Eve 'led' or enticed poor ADam to sin. And you also get the erroneous belief that all women for all time are more easily deceived. Even Mark driscoll teaches this false doctrine. It is a very bad interpretation of 1 Tim 2. But it does benefit men who teach it.

The truth is that Eve WAS deceived because she had less knowledge than Adam. If you read closely, (not in the NIV which is a bad translation) you will see that Adam actually saw God creating in the Garden.

So Eve was deceived. She admitted it.

Adam sinned with eyes wide open then blamed God and Eve. He just stood there, listened and sinned knowingly.

Both men and woman are the cause of moral degredation. Both must assume responsiblity. But I would also have to say that men held the power for thousands of years. But it is always easier to blame someone else. Especially someone with no power or influence to fight back.

BTW: How many men do you know who have been forceably, against their will raped by women? HOw many women pedophiles have you ever heard of?

Women are guilty of obeying men and helping them hide such crimes. That is their biggest evil.

Rhia said...


While I agree with you completely about this offensive and absurd garbage that was on the video wanted to point out that gender is not an issue when it comes to abusive people. There are quite a few female pedophiles and sex offenders out in the world. You can read the research articles I have on my site, articles from feminist researchers even, about that very issue.

I even have a few cases posted of female pastors sexually abusing people.

Don't make the same mistake that these ignorant people make and make it an us them kind of issue. Abuse is wrong no matter who does it or what form it takes. It is not a male or female issue it is a human issue.

Rhia said...

Just to be clear when I said ignorant people I meant the people thinking that women are evil or the cause of all evil.

gmommy said...

I don't know where to begin. This bothers me on so many levels.
I'm sorry people like SG continue to promote the degrading of women. I'm sorry SG has prideful confidence in using another man's words instead of teaching how Jesus loved and treated women with respect.
For anyone who might take this stuff to heart, please know Jesus doesn't blame or shame.He doesn't manipulate or crush. Our worth isn't diminished b/c these self anointed men don't know, believe,or speak the truth.

John said...

If what he says is true, and I seriously do not think so, then the men of the church would be wise to follow the leadership of a Godly woman.If they determine by themselves the moral status of a home, church, or nation then ahyput them down and fail to give them at least as much credit and resspect as blame.
This is not Biblical preaching. This is nothing more than pointing the finger of blame at others so as to hide one's own failures and sins.

Lydia said...


I have no doubt there are evil women who do such things.

Do you have any stats on percentage of all sex crimes that are committed by women? Have you ever seen a case where an adult woman raped an adult man?

My limited experience usually involves women who look the other way enabling sexual perversion of their husbands.

Sorry for the confusion, my point drifted a bit in my comment. I meant to convey that the teaching from Gaines is typical of casting blame on women for the sins of men. It has it's roots on twisted teaching about Eve and the Fall.

Ironcially, they are doing exactly what Adam did.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone ever seen the way Gaines' daughter dresses?

Rhia said...


I agree. As for the story I was just researching another one today in which a woman drugged and raped and male. She took a plea to reduce the sentence

As for stats, those can be tricky. Males are the majority of convicted offenders (and the term sex offender covers a huge range of offenses). Research seems to show that female offenders seem to be around 20% though lower in some areas and possibly higher in others. For example:

According to a major 2004 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education - In studies that ask students about offenders, sex differences are less than in adult reports. The 2000 AAUW data indicate that 57.2 percent of all students report a male offender and 42.4 percent a female offender with the Cameron et al. study reporting nearly identical proportions as the 2000 AAUW data (57 percent male offenders vs. 43 percent female offenders)

In a study of 17,337 survivors of childhood sexual abuse, 23% had a female-only perpetrator and 22% had both male and female perpetrators. ( Dube, Shanta R et al. “Long-Term Consequences of Childhood Sexual Abuse by Gender of Victim.” American Journal of Preventive Medicine. (2005):28(5), p 430 – 438.)

One in six adult men reported being sexually molested as children, and -- in a surprise finding -- nearly 40 percent of the perpetrators were female, a new study found. (Source Link)

Some studies estimate that female perpetrators are responsible for 20% of sexual abuse cases involving children and teenagers, according to Victorian psychologist Rebecca Deering. Dr Deering recently completed a PhD study of victims of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse. The study, conducted through Deakin University, focused on a group of 10 male and five female victims, all of whom experienced severe abuse. These victims suffered serious negative consequences as a result of the abuse, such as depression, drug and alcohol abuse, aggression, anxiety disorders and suicidal thoughts, both as children and into adulthood. Victims expressed 'disgust and outrage' at society's refusal to acknowledge the seriousness of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse. Dr Deering said that explanations of why women commit these offences 'tend to evoke sympathetic reactions, which lessens the moral culpability of the females' (Australian Financial Review, 25/5/06, p.60; Courier Mail Focus supplement, 29/7/06, p.1).

That is just a few tidbits. I agree with you and think that the collusion that occurs is a horribly damaging piece of CSA.

Christa Brown said...

"Our worth isn't diminished b/c these self anointed men don't know, believe,or speak the truth."

So well-said, gmommy, and so important. No matter what these self-anointed men say or do, we cannot - CANNOT - allow them to diminish us. They are filled with falsity.

Lin said...

From Revelation:

14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

So, why not a sermon on Balaam blaming men?

gmommy said...

Anon 8:13
SG has no credibility to me b/c of his response to the minister who confessed to him (SG) that he was a child molester..
He also has no business talking about women this way when he has daughters who dress by the norm of "pop culture".
I don't know one daughter from the other but the one who used to sit on the front row with his wife and is splashed all over facebook is never modest in the way she dresses.
I guess SG would blame his wife for his daughter's lack of modesty.

Also, these guys need to study the Bible or go back to school. Maybe even get over their insecurity or hate for women. This is a Baptist or “fundy” thing. The Presbyterians do NOT teach this scripture the same way. I am embarrassed by this and anxious at how many will be made to stumble b/c of this faulty teaching.

Christa Brown said...

Bloggert7165: Just wanted to let you know how timely your comments were. Very recently, someone asked me if I had any ready data on the ratio of male to female offenders, and I didn't have much to offer. But I've now been able to at least direct that person to your comment here and to your blogsite for additional info to look into. So . . . thanks.

Anonymous said...

"The Presbyterians do NOT teach this scripture the same way."

Ever heard of Ligon Duncan or RC Sproul, Jr?

RC Sproul, Jr also says that women should not be allowed to blog as some internet Lothario will entice her away.

Ligon Duncan:

Both Presbyterians.

gmommy said... there are "little men" in all denominations. I was speaking specifically about how Revelation is taught. Revelation would be the last book of the Bible where a random section would be pulled out and a sermon built around it.
Revelation is read as a scriptural description of the trials and tribulations the church is going to go thru. Not literally.
Jezebel is a story the Jews were familiar with. That’s what I meant about the Presbyterians (that I have experience with).
Our friend EZ shared this with me...Jezebel is an allegory for God's relationship with his people (men and women) the church. A minister should include the whole church and most importantly its leaders (himself).
It is a "spirit of Jezebel" that is operating not a specific gender. It is the church that has left her first love not an individual woman in Rev 2.

New BBC Open Forum said...

R.C. Sproul, Jr. on the sanctification of wives:

We must sanctify our wives.

"Paul is rather clear in the end of Ephesians chapter 5. He draws a striking parallel between Jesus and the church, and husbands and wives. He calls on husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for her. And there we tend to stop. Jesus died for us, that we might have peace with God. A godly husband, then, is one who is ready and willing to lay down his life for his wife, if such an occasion should ever arise. A godly wife is one who submits to her own husband. A godly husband, or so we think, is one who is willing to take a hypothetical bullet for his bride. The trouble is, or the good news is, that neither the text, nor Jesus stops there. Jesus does not merely die for the church, but He washes her with the water of the Word, that she might be without spot or wrinkle. Jesus' work of atonement ended on the cross. But He is far from finished. He is about the business of bringing all things under subjection, and is purifying His bride.

"The dominion mandate, wherein we are about the same business of bringing all things under subjection, in turn includes the call to purify our brides. Of course we are but means. That is, it is the Holy Spirit from whence comes the power. It is the Word of God which washes. But husbands are the tools in the hands of God to bring this to pass. Our calling is to wash our brides with the water of the Word.

"Our calling here is prophetic. The prophet brings to bear the Word of God to those under his care, calling on them to believe all that God has said. So husbands ought to do with their wives. When our wives face the temptation to grumble and complain, we call on them, as Paul does, to rejoice in all things. When our wives face the temptation to covet, we encourage them to give thanks for all that God has provided for them. The power is in the Word. It has the power to change us.

"Our calling isn't merely to have happy marriages. We are not brought together as husband and wife for the sake of self-fulfillment. Instead, the very center of the garden a man is called to cultivate is his own wife. His life's work isn't ultimately making better widgets. It is instead being used to help make better wives. Jesus works for the sake of His bride. Husbands ought to do no less. For anyone who loves himself will love his wife, for the two are one flesh.

"A husband set on the sanctifying his wife will realize as well, that because we are one flesh with our wives, we had better be busy about our own sanctification. It is likely that the blots and blemishes on our brides are rather similar to the blots and blemishes on ourselves. In both instances, wash with the Word. And pray that God would be pleased to sanctify us, to make us both, husbands and wives, ever more like our Lord, like our Husband."

I suppose single women -- whether never married, divorced, or widowed -- are out of luck. And in this case probably invisible.

New BBC Open Forum said...

More from Sproul:

We must be under the authority of a faithful, local church.

"No, this thesis is not misplaced. The importance of being under the authority of a local church is certainly true for singles, but it is also a family issue. There are any number of reasons for this truth, not the least of which is in Hebrews where we are told 'Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who have to give an account' (13:17). The elders of a local church are not there to balance the church budget. They are not there to man programs, or make sure that good teaching gets done. They are there to watch over souls. A part of that calling may include the exercise of discipline. Just as parents discipline their children to help them to grow in grace, to protect them from their own folly, so elders may be called upon to discipline the sheep under their care, for the sake of the sheep. And wise sheep recognize this. Our families are protected when we are under godly authority.

"Without the blessing of church discipline undergirding the integrity of our families, what happens when we are tempted to stray away from our families. Suppose, for instance, that out of a sincere desire to minister to those who belong to unbelieving mainline churches, a family stays in an unbelieving mainline church. Now suppose that the husband finds himself caught up in the sin of adultery. The function of church discipline here is much like the function of Nathan in confronting David about Bathsheba — to bring about godly repentance. But a church which will not discipline a man for having a boyfriend will certainly not discipline a man for having a girlfriend. The integrity of the family is jeopardized by the failure to be under actual authority here.

"The same argument applies when we determine that our family is a part of the 'invisible' church, and we meet on our own, or with a few friends, with no accountability as in Hebrews. Suppose a Bible believing, evangelical husband who runs his own 'house church' with his older children and their spouses is severely mistreating his own wife. What recourse does she have, and how can he be helped toward repentance?

"The elders of the church in the New Testament context are like the elders of clans in ancient Israel. They exist not to lord their authority over the people, but in part to serve as a sort of court of appeals for the family. Without that authority above a man, he becomes exposed to the danger of being unaccountable.

"My wife understands that the Bible calls her to submit to me. She can do so in peace, however, knowing that should I ever use that God given authority in an ungodly way, there are others that she can appeal to. I, in turn, should be tempted to use that authority in an ungodly way, know that I will have to give an answer, right here on earth. The church family is a blessing to the particular family. It is a blessing we refuse to our peril."

Our church "authorities" have been really effective in holding predator ministers accountable, haven't they?

New BBC Open Forum said...

From that same article by Sproul:

Husbands must command the respect of their wives and children.

"We live in a casual age. Professional men, at least on Fridays, show up at work without a tie on. I'm sitting at my computer wearing shorts. And I'm shoeless. Broadly speaking we find that which is formal to be stuffy, uptight, boring, something for old folks. Even our relationships are now more casual. We are so egalitarian in our understanding that children not only do not rise when an adult enters the room, but frequently speak to adults using their first name. Even some children do the same with their own parents. Worse still, perhaps due to our cultures obsession with youth, some adults encourage this. 'Don't call me Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith was my father... '

"While the notion that less formality creates greater collegiality is dubious at best, it is nearly certain that less formality breeds disrespect. Our calling within our families is to foster both intimacy and a healthy respect for different roles. Sarah and Abraham could not be understood as aloof from one another. Yet, according to the Bible, Sarah called her husband, 'Lord.' This posture of respect toward her husband wasn't given due to servile fear. Nor did it flow out of changing cultural mores. Instead Peter tells us the context, 'But let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.' (I Peter 3: 4-6). It would certainly seem that all our children should follow that example.

"When we suggest that husbands ought to 'command' respect, we need to tread carefully. It has oft been said that respect is something earned. And surely husbands ought to earn the respect of their wives and children. On the other hand, respect is likewise due to the offices held by fathers and husbands. Even bad husbands are husbands, even bad fathers are fathers. A weak father and husband will not best fulfill his calling by blustering and demanding. But neither will he be helped by rolling over, or by neglecting the authority of his office.

"We live in a broader culture that has lost sight of these truths. Once upon a time, Father knew best. In our age, fathers are publicly presented in the media, on television, in comic strips, as at best well meaning boobs. They are called, however, to be leaders in their homes. Servant leaders to be sure, but leaders nonetheless. As husbands learn to lead in their homes, as they are treated with respect and dignity by those under their care, next we will see elders leading in their churches, and there too treated with respect and dignity. This, in turn, will not only change our families and our churches, but will change the world."

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anon 5:50,

I'm not sure about the second link you gave. Was this the one?

New BBC Open Forum said...

How to put a link in a comment.

gmommy said...

I apologize for using the experience I have with the Presbyterians vs the experience I have with the Baptists to make a point that was not clear (on my first try).
I think it has now become a deflection away from Christa's post and the reason for this blog.

I was referring to how SG used the specific reference to Jezebel in Revelation to blame and shame women. This kind of wrong theology is degrading to women and has been experienced by victims of clergy sexual abuse.
I felt like my point related to Christa's post but I am very sorry for mentioning the other denomination now.
I was not trying to change the discussion to woman's issues in general.
The problem with the words SG referenced and now the words from these 2 Presbyterians is that these are men giving their opinions on what the Bible teaches.
Hopefully we believers will be Bereans.

Anonymous said...

And I thought it was MALES by the name of HEFNER and FLYNT that started this trend.

Christa Brown said...

For background, some of you might find the Wikipedia info on Jezebel to be interesting. It gives a short bit on both the Old Testament Jezebel and the Jezebel of Revelation.

ezekiel said...

You guys seem to be forgetting Vodie Baucum's message on the role of godly fathers one Wed night at Bellevue. That night everything was up to the father and the whole church stood up and cheered. One week its you guys, the next it is us. In the end we are all horrible examples of human flesh and nobody is getting it right. Except the preacher.......

Humph, so much for God's sovereignty and the vessels He created, one for honor and another for dishonor, one for mercy and one for wrath. Just think, now it's all you womens fault. Be patient, tomorrow it will be all us weak, ineffective, horrible men.

Really now, if you want to use Jezebel as an example and keep her in context you have to remember that she was in a position of authority, she was married to the King (at one point)and she used his name and position to work all sorts of underhanded, wicked deeds. She was selfish, vindictive and pure poison to God's truly annointed prophets. And she had a bad habit of painting herself up and changing partners when it suited her.

You can find a lot more of her in EZ 16, Hos 2 and Rev 17. If you keep it in context and remember that we speak in spiritual rather than fleshly terms you will probably see that the sexual impurity talked about is spiritual idolatry and the food sacrificed to idols today is time and treasure(tithes) collected for the idol.

If you put the preacher in the idol's position and the church in Jezebel's position then you begin to see what is played out in many (certainly not all) churches today.

Before anyone gets their back all up about me calling some churches a jezebel please read Ez 16, Hos 2.

Unless of course, you want to read it literally and if you do, and if you actually are teaching your kids sexual impurity and killing animals in your backyard to sacrifice to idols then....stop it and stop it NOW.

The good news is that through faith in Jesus Christ we either can be or have been reconciled to God. Not based on any works of the law, or anything you do or don't do. If we believe (don't forget that He is the author and finisher of that faith)in Jesus we have been redeemed, forgiven. We are a new creation, no longer male, female, slave...but sons of God.

Ever wonder how that preacher tells the difference when God can't/doesn't? (Gal 3:28)

I am 100% certain that you are blessed, special people in the eyes of God. (Eph 1-2) among others.

Lin said...

"You guys seem to be forgetting Vodie Baucum's message on the role of godly fathers one Wed night at Bellevue. That night everything was up to the father and the whole church stood up and cheered. One week its you guys, the next it is us. In the end we are all horrible examples of human flesh and nobody is getting it right. Except the preacher......."

Voddie was one who said that Sarah Palin was outside her role in running for VP. He also teaches that girls do not need to go to college. Only problem is that he allowed his 18 year old to attend a local college.

HEre is a quote from Voddie Baucham that is sicko, sicko...

““A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that.””

He really said that. If I had time, I would find the youtube video of him saying that.

Lin said...

BTW: If these men were truly saved, they would not have to worry about being enticed by "Jezebels".

Gaines should start there.

Anonymous said...

He is right about the Hollywood women. Absolutely. But he is a total hypocrite to deliver that message. Isn't there a SHRINE in the church to his own wife? Doesn't that SHRINE to his wife showcase her beauty pagents and other worldly adornments??

You need to check YOUR OWN HOUSE Gaines!

Anonymous said...

He is right about the Hollywood women. Absolutely. But he is a total hypocrite to deliver that message. Isn't there a SHRINE in the church to his own wife? Doesn't that SHRINE to his wife showcase her beauty pagents and other worldly adornments??

You need to check YOUR OWN HOUSE Gaines!

November 29, 2009 12:04 PM

Wow, I forgot all about that! You are right! It was showcasing all her beauty pageant stuff! Talk about worldly.

And there are pics of one of his own daughter wearing real tight low cut tops and strapless gowns, one even so low cut down the middle it showed both her breasts. And these were pics from High School!So, he cannot use the excuse she was not living under his roof!

Unknown said...

Just found the clip from u tube from Voddie Baucham about fathers and daughters, that Lin quoted.

the link

Now that's a dangerous teaching!

Anonymous said...

"And there are pics of one of his own daughter wearing real tight low cut tops and strapless gowns, one even so low cut down the middle it showed both her breasts. And these were pics from High School!"

WOW! Just WOW! Why is this man still a preacher?! Seriously. Can anyone give a legitimate answer here? How can anyone "sit under" his preaching? You gotta be real brainwashed or just an idiot to sit under that mess! Why does Bellevue have even one person show up? I don't get it. In the "real world," fool would've run out of town.

Christa Brown said...

"In the 'real world,' fool would've run out of town."

Of course. But in Baptistland, other high honchos praise him and promote him, and people in the pews say "Amen." It's the surreal land of "the chosen" where they pay, pray and obey, and act as though this man is a righteous moral authority.

gmommy said...

I have a piggy back on those last few comments.
I broke a rule of mine today. I walked in a Baptist church for the first time in a long time.
Besides needing to come out of some isolation, my son made plans on Thanksgiving to visit this local baptist church. I wanted to check out the minister and how they do things and I also wanted to see some sweet friends who had stood by me during the BBC blow up.

Anon 9:37 is so right.
This is one clip of SG but I was there for months when he became the pastor. Nothing has changed. He rambles, berates, tells stories, and gives his own version of what scripture suit his agenda. He exudes no humility or love that is visible to me. This guy and the likes of Mac in Florida are "the big dogs" in baptist land. They are making the major bucks and get the doors opened for them in all kinds of ways.
The minister I heard speak this morning was so easily a better preacher by far!!!I have no idea the budget or salary of the church today but the minister is not in the "cool club" with these mega pastors. Yet SG and Mac sound like idiots compared to the guy I heard today.
It's GOT to be rigged if this is the best these "pulpit committees" can come up with.
I emailed the pastor I heard today back when a lot of my BBC friends were going over there and asked him if he found himself with a sexual predator on his staff how would he handle it...and did he think the way SG handled the PW "incident" was appropriate for a pastor.
I know words are cheap...and I don't remember hearing that this nice guy confronted SG about the BBC stuff...but he told me that PW would have been fired immediately and that was the only appropriate action a pastor should take in this situation.
Bottom line...SG is what they get for all the money they pay and the embarrassment he brought on the church?? THIS is who the good ol boys continue to promote??
I know...autonomy gives them no power to control anything with the individual churches.No protection for those who need it!

Jeri said...

Jezebel was a moral pragmatist whose basic motto was, "If it's good for me and my power base, then it's right." Centuries later, Cicero argued the same idea, and the idea has come down to us as "reason of state." In short, those who rule answer to a different set of ethics and laws because they have a loftier purpose to protect the ordinary people.

For all his denunciation of Jezebel, Gaines embraces the exact same godless and cruel philosophy: those in power answer to different rules (or themselves) because they are entitled to do so by their power.

And Christa, welcome to the "I got called a Jezebel by a Baptist Preacher" club. We could probably make t-shirts. The name has been flung at me a lot in the past.

I'm not shocked or saddened by the almost open contempt Gaines and his cronies have for the true spirit of Christianity, but I am shocked and disappointed in how many people so blindly follow him/them.

Jeri said...

Jezebel herself has definitely gone through some whitewashng in modern times. But since we have only the Biblical account, we don't really see that she's all that sexually promiscuous. That distinction came by attachment from her religion of Baal worship, which employed temple prostitutes.

But she came from a Phoenician royal family, and without a doubt she chafed under the Israelite system, which tried to put its royal sovereigns under the Law.

The kings of Israel/Judah always chafed under this system, except for David, who humbled himself to the Law when he was called down for it. But the Law was ordained without reference to a king, the idea being that everybody was under the same Law.

The kings themselves preferred the philosophy of the cultures around them, which put the kings above the laws, as the kings in those cultures were seen as descendants of the gods or at least their chosen favorites. And this war of kings rights vs. the sovereignty of the Law over all people within Israel, continued all the way from Jeroboam to the captivity.

Of course this was going to chafe a Phoenician princess like Jezebel, but she may not deserve that much sympathy. She did everything she could to remove this interference from the rights of tyranny that she believed in. She had been raised to think of her class as privileged, and she probably was fighting for herself and her way of life.

But she and Ahab were bad through and through. They did kill ordinary people because they insisted that they had an executive right to do so. Jezebel did provide Ahab with the legal counsel and philosophy to dispense with his responsibilities to the Law.

I must admit, the fundamentalist hysteria over Jezebel probably owes a lot to fundamentalist misogyny (sp?), but we should avoid letting the pendulum swing the other way too far. As was the tradition among Phoenician royalty (and most royalty in that era), Jezebel believed herself entitled to royal privilege. But we see from the example of the SBC leadership how devastating that is for ordinary people and the rights granted to them under modern law, when leadership exempts itself from the same justice that governs others.

I don't blame Jehu for chucking her out a window. She killed the innocent (as did Ahab, and he also died a violent death). But Steve Gaines should remember that God abhorred both the Phoenician queen and the Israelite king who, alike, harmed His people. When God judges sin, He doesn't spare those who harm the innocent, whether they profess Him or some foreign god.

Christa Brown said...

Jeri: I'm proud to be a member of the same club as you - the "I got called a Jezebel by a Baptist preacher" club. :-)

Jeri summed it up so well - the basic, underlying philosophy of so many Baptist leaders: "Those in power answer to different rules (or themselves) because they are entitled to do so by their power." That is the very essence of Baptistland.

And I could not possibly agree more - the most shocking and disappointing part is "how many people so blindly follow them." It is the silence of the many that always haunts me the most.

Ramesh said...

Please note that Donna Gaines, wife of Steve Gaines is a member of the task force for Great Commission Resurgence for SBC. BTW she is the only female in the task force.

Jim said...

I hope you will consider the "Jezebel rant" by "Bubba" Gains or any of the other mega bubbas, as a badge of honor and a testament to your courage. He and his ilk have neither.

Christa Brown said...

"Mega bubbas" - it's a description that suits a lot of them.

They're like the giant blimps you see floating over football stadiums. They look really big when they’re up above us with their messages from on high. But when they get punctured, they’re just a bunch of hot air.

gmommy said...

This may be the only place I might get another persons prospective without feeling like an idiot.
I just read Wade's blog post about the Tiger Woods scandal as it relates to gender equality.
My mind isn't as clear as I'd like it to be b/c I have had several nights of the haunting dreams that many here will understand without my trying to explain.
These are my questioning men and women respond in the same way emotionally to finding out their spouse has cheated on them???
Do men feel like their bodies have been violated?? Is that even the way a "normal" woman would feel?
If most "normal" women experience the feeling of betrayal by the one they loved and trusted as a violation to their bodies...can or does a man respond in the same way?
Do men feel like they trusted their lives and bodies and all that is "sacred" to their wives and if betrayed, do they feel dirty, mocked,used,demoralized, dehumanized,and violated? Or some of those things?
I don't think all men and all women process life in the same ways.
Arrest me...but IF Tiger's wife came after him with a golf club when she discovered under God only knows what circumstances...I hope her aim was good.

Christa Brown said...

“I don't think all men and all women process life in the same ways.”

I agree. I haven’t followed the Tiger Woods case, but generally, I seldom think that celebrity cases provide many “lessons.” So I don’t think there is much to be learned about “gender equality” in the Tiger Woods scenario.

I have no clue what the motivation of Woods’ wife was in wielding the golf club – and from what I’ve seen, I don’t think anyone else does either. But this much I know: For many decades, countless men have gotten away with “crimes of passion.” Historically, that’s what it has often been called when a man assaults or even murders his wife while in a fit of rage upon learning of her infidelity. Society and the law have typically viewed it as a form of temporary insanity. I’m not saying it’s right. It never has been. But it’s a defense that has been widely accepted.

Part of what makes me so uneasy with so much of the speculation on the Tiger Woods case – and it IS speculation - is the simple fact that it’s just too easy for golf fans and those who idolize celebrities to take the side of their hero. I’m not saying that people do it consciously – I think it’s mostly subconscious – which is what makes it all the more insidious.

And let’s remember that Woods’ wife was working as a nanny when she met him. That fact alone probably says a lot about the enormous power differential between the two of them. And of course, that’s typical. Women are usually the ones who are in positions of lesser power, lesser income, lesser resources, lesser experience, and lesser influence.

I think it is a mistake for anyone to imagine that an investigation of Woods’ wife on possible assault charges would be “a sign that our culture is beginning to understand gender equality.” If people want to understand “gender equality” – and inequality – they should look to the larger systemic patterns rather than to the case of a celebrity golfer.

All across the country, far too many women are habitually battered by their spouses. And far too many women have to struggle to get protective orders enforced. And far too many women, who are already in roles of utter powerlessness, hear preachers tell them that love of God and biblical authority demand their “submission.” It’s an impossible double-bind for many, many women.

Meanwhile . . . over at the Associated Baptist Press, in comments to an article about a Southern Baptist minister charged with child molestation, “Slick” responds with snideness to someone “WoundedbytheChurch” by saying “oooh…did our little feelings get hurt” and he states his view that an underage girl molested by a pastor was “a willing participant.” Then “Glenn” complains about how “thousands of ministers” have been “wounded by their own churches because of selfish, un-Christlike behaviors” … as if ministers whose careers are “wounded” could possibly be compared to kids who are molested and raped by clergy. Then “Pastor Dave” comes on board to criticize “WoundedbytheChurch” for his anger and “un-Christian” tone, to suggest that he get “Christian counseling” and that he “turn it over” to God, and to say that he’ll pray for him.

Sweet, huh? No one in Baptistland has to actually DO anything to help someone “WoundedbytheChurch.” People in Baptistland get to “just leave it in God’s hands” and the denomination still doesn’t do diddly-squat.

It’s so much easier for people to speculate about Tiger Woods’ wife, isn’t it?

Christa Brown said...

Gmommy: I just saw this article, which you might find of interest. The golfer who introduced his family's nanny, Elin, to Tiger Woods said, "I would probably need to apologize to her and hope she uses a driver next time instead of the 3-iron."

john said...

I think all we need do is go back to the "Rant" above and see where for a lot of men it is the woman's fault when he fails but the poor little man is just sowing his oats or just being a male. How stupid, shallow, and irresponsible this type of preaching or beliving is!

Anonymous said...

I think we should all go and look at how Gaines' daughter dresses so we can know he approves of the same Jezebel's in his own home but not when it is other women.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Mr. Gaines finds it ironic that all this power--i.e. men following women down the road of supposed sin, women causing every problem--is ascribed to women, and portrays men as virtually powerless against the onslaught of women's evil ways, as though the men have no minds of their own.